Turnus was quoted in my 2023 "Narrative Reasoning" dream, so this character is possibly relevant.
Friday, July 11, 2025
Turnum outknaves all three
As I was contemplating "Rub-a-dub-dub" this morning, I spontaneously reinterpreted the last line, "Turn 'em out, knaves all three," as "Turnum outknaves all three" -- meaning that Turnum (accusative of Turnus, the Rutulian king whose death brings the Aeneid to an abrupt end) is even more of a knave than the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker. (The accusative is not grammatical here, but puns must be allowed a certain poetic license.)
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Following up on the idea that the pecked are no longer alone in their bodies , reader Ben Pratt has brought to my attention these remarks by... -
Disclaimer: My terms are borrowed (by way of Terry Boardman and Bruce Charlton) from Rudolf Steiner, but I cannot claim to be using them in ... -
It's been a while since I clicked for a randomly selected /x/ thread . I tried it today just in the spirit of "Is this thing on?...
6 comments:
I think giving additional backing to this alternative reading is the Elvish play on words for the name Turnum.
Tur gives us things like "Lord, King, Conqueror, Dominator, Power over", etc. Num is familiar because it is the first part of Numenor. It means "West", but also literally it means "to sink, going down, descend", etc.
You can come up with all sorts of combinations from those two roots. Lord of the West. Conqueror of the West. The Fallen/ Sinking King. King of Numenor. You get the idea. Pharazonian in other words, perhaps.
I could think of other characters, but given the association with Turnus and the symbolism of that story (e.g., listening to the wrong messenger/ Being leading ultimately to tragedy and death), I think this works.
I think this also could tie back to your dream of Terry and the two Books, or at least I can see a way. You asked if I see a specific baptism connection there. I don't necessarily, but I can think of some larger themes or symbols that would incorporate it - basically along this same theme of who to listen/ pay attention to. I'll try to post a little later.
Oh, right, Tur as in Turambar, “master of fate.” I should have thought of that.
Right.
Getting to your dream of Terry, I think the two books are relevant not for the literal critique of your literary preferences (which as you say are not reflective of real life), but with respect to the implied "authors" of each book, what the books represent, and who Terry would prefer you pay attention to.
The "Fat Cat" reference of Tolstoy caught my attention - that is the phrase that I thought through in the word game of an overweight cat. A "Fat Cat" is often slang used to describe a wealthy person with the implication that they obtained their wealth through questionable means. It is also used to describe donors or people who make monetary contributions in return for something. That latter point brought to mind Gross Gaur, who appeared in your dream-school saying he had made a payment and wanted a receipt.
In other words, I don't think Terry represents Gross Gaur. I think Terry is calling out that Gross Gaur has influenced you and in the past you 'read' his book and preferred it to another.
The Cat or Lion reference might give another clue as to Gross Gaur in this symbolism. It isn't well known since mention of it was completely scrubbed in the final Silmarillion, but in early drafts Sauron was known as Tevildo, the Prince of Cats. He was literally represented as a large, evil cat.
The Fat Lion on "Sometimes we Fight/ War and Peace"? It is as good a guess as any, particularly if Terry is actually Aragorn-John. You had that earlier dream where you were G fighting against Diego. If Pharazon's assault on Eressea and Aman is partially alluded to in that dream (as a broader theme/ trend), the both the author and the title of the book John prefered you not read makes sense. It was Sauron who convinced Pharazon to launch his assault.
The reference to Keats and the Nightingale reference I think also could point to Sauron (with the Nightingale potentially referencing Tinuviel-Varda), but I will save that tangent for a different comment.
Anyway, Terry seems to think the Fat Lion book is bad, and you should rather read or pay attention to the Wily Whale. Wily in this case can mean "Cunning", and you had that dream of the Cunning One, along with his mother. You first interpreted this Being as negative (due to a possible allusion to Saruman in the name), but I took this designation as definitely positive, and that remains my guess. The Cunning One would be the person to listen to whenever we find them. The Whale/ Wale connection further supports this guess.
The specific mention of Melville threw me off at first. In investigating Moby Dick earlier, I had linked the the name of Herman Melville to Pharazon. But in your dream, the Angel Angelica said that Herman was a 'straight shooter' and you ought to prefer him over the the alternative (Sauron in my current guess above). So, in this usage, I think that can't be. I looked up the name again to see what I might have missed.
In my earlier name game, I had translated Herman Melville as "The army man from the bad settlement". Melville in one translation gives us that Bad Settlement name. However, I found two other meanings that I think solve the riddle and are consistent with earlier interpretations of the White Whale.
Will continue in another comment to fit space limitations....
Continuing on with Melville and the two other meanings:
First, Melville can mean "Honey Town". This comes from the French "Mel" for Honey and "Ville" for Town. THe mention of honey here is significant, I think.
Second, Melville can come from an Irish-Gaelic name. Given Ireland's symbolic importance, and that Terry is Irish, this seems also interesting. Melville is the Anglicized name for Maoilmhichil, and that name means "Devotee or descendant of St. Michael".
My guess has long been that the White Whale represents Michael. In my story, Michael is the same Being as Eonwe. This connection gives us a direct link the the "Army Man of the Honey Town", and funny pun. Eonwe was described by Tolkiens as the "greatest in arms of all Arda". He also led the army of the Valar known as the Host of the Valar. In my story, he is the Being referred to as "The Arm of the Lord" in some scriptures who will be revealed at some point. In all of these senses, we have a very Arm-y man. You might recall uses of symbols like Neil Armstrong (a Strong Arm) and his being the first man to go on a Moonwalk (like another Michael - the Jackson kind) to point to Eonwe-Michael. This character is also the other part of the Holy Ghost dyad.
Anyway, so I think Terry is saying he doesn't like you because given the choice, apparently you have preferred to read Sauron's book (and perhaps those aligned with him) rather than the straight-shooter Eonwe's. Straight-shooter is likely a specific play on words by Angelica, and it might be clearer if you read it as Strait-Shooter. To "Shoot" something originally meant to "hasten from place to place; move swiftly;" and "dart forth, go swiftly and suddenly". This would be a direct reference to the Swift Messenger mentioned in Joseph Smith's GAEL (which is another great pun, right, with the Irish connection?) and the strait path he creates and which one finds themselves on after a true baptism.
So, round about way of saying that the dream I feel is definitely relevant to your baptism and the question of "Did it count?" but it is much larger than that. And no, I don't think it did, not in the way that matters, at least. And if Terry is the Baptist, then he is alluding as to why in a larger context and story then just the manner in which you baptized yourself.
I also mentioned Keats' "Ode to the Nightingale" since that seemed to come up as a specific hint in your dream. You protested that you would "trust Melville on whales over Keats on nightingales any day!” Leaving aside why you said this for now, and just looking at the statement itself, it is clear why this would be the case if my guesses above are correct. The name Melville (City of Honey) is synonymous with the Wily Whale himself, thus you would trust Melville's account of said Whale. Keats, however, is synonymous with the Fat Cat, and likely Gross Gaur, who is Sauron.
This makes the Nightingale reference interesting, given the Elvish allusion to Tinuviel and therefore Varda. It was Sauron who imprisoned both Beren (Manwe) and Tinuviel (Varda) on his island known as Tol Sirion, which also had another name: Tol-in-Gaurhoth. The Gaurhoth potentially links this back to Gross Gaur, with Gaur being a reference to the werewolf. Extremely relevant, I think, to the Fat Cat/ Lion reference, is that in the earliest drafts of that story, it is Tevildo, the Prince of Cats, who runs the place. Tevildo was then replaced with Sauron.
Luthien was called Tinuviel because when she sang her voice sounded like Nightingales, and could enchant. Anyway, at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, Luthien defeats Sauron and rescues Beren, after which they go off to continue their quest to get a Silmaril from Melkor.
Thus, the statement that you said is true - you wouldn't trust "Keats" on anything having to do with Nightingales.
In trying to determine if Keats was a name that we could tie to Sauron as well, I was initially discouraged. It means "Shed Worker" or "Herdsman", I guess.
But then I looked up Shed, and got creative, and I think it works for our evil Being and scourge of Numenor and Middle-earth. Shed can mean "to cast off, divide, separate" from an earlier word that literally means "to split, cut". Sauron is the Being most responsible for the the split or cut that was made in Eressea and across worlds. Thus a Shed Worker, meaning "A worker who divides, splits, casts off, etc.", works well.
Shed, interestingly enough given baldness imagery in the past, also means "to lose hair, feathers, etc., by natural process".
The actual poem "Ode to the Nightingale" itself also has some interesting references and symbols. For one, the poet's desire for a drink, just like Jack Nicholson and Pharazon. He says "O, for a draught of vintage!", and then states the drink would be 'tasting of flora and the country green'. Pharazon's drink was literally from the flora of Eressea, and this was meant to grant him immortality. In Tolkien's writings, Aman is the symbol of immortality, with immortal Beings living there. In LOTR it was also called "a far green country" in Frodo's dream of sailing to the West.
Anyway, it was Sauron who convinced Pharazon to launch his assault, drink from the lilies, and land on the Green Country, which resulted in whole splitting/ dividing thing and the breaking of the Straight Road (that had likely been set up in the very beginning days of Numenor by the Straight Shooter Eonwe). And this could be another strong tie in to the Keats' poem reference in your dream.
In fact, the poem ends with the question as to whether the person is awake or asleep. I have been paying attention to Nephi's prophecy in 2 Nephi where, quoting Isaiah, it is said that those who fight against Zion will be like people who are both asleep and awake, or rather, who thought they were awake and eating and drinking, but woke up and realized they were actually dreaming and still hungry and thirsty.
The reference to Sauron given the other characters involved (Saruman, Ungoliant) makes sense, particularly so if the guess is correct that you were Pharazon. You guys would have spent a lot of time together on Numenor.
He is a confusing character for me to have involved now, since my assumption had always been that after the 3rd Age and the destruction of the ring, he was rendered more or less permanently powerless. He is hinted at in my 2020 words and in particular around the events at Sawtooth. In case I haven't shared them, I'll leave them here. These came on May 1 - roughly a week or so after Asenath's encounter with evil Beings at Sawtooth, and a couple weeks before the Disciples or somebody went down to retrieve the Rose Stone:
The evil bucket, you bring the evil bucket next time Thu!
Bai-maiden she made me take an oath
Explore some sign of bora, some change upon higher places
I take the above as a dialogue involving Thu, another name for Sauron, and someone who appears to be his boss. I had really struggled with whether Thu was a reference to a person, or more something like a bucket-full of black mist. Given everything you are relating though, and the emergence of Gross Gaur, I think it is probably a reference to Sauron himself.
Context clues indicate he was somehow present in the Sawtooth Mountains, and was made to take an oath by Asenath after she defeated him and potentially others. But he learned from her, and related to his boss, some things he was told in the encounter, including a "Bora" and "a change upon higher places". Bora is likely a reference to a "trusty/ faithful man and/or descendant", with a potential play on words to our hot and red Phoenix, since bor also alludes to something that is just that, hot and red. The "higher places" where the changes happen are likely Aman and Eressea, given other words.
A big mystery has been who is the "boss" speaking here? If I had to guess right now, this would be Saruman. Given Sauron's condition after the Ring's destruction, and the rise of Saruman's influence and power, it would make sense for Saruman perhaps to have put Sauron to work for him. Evil feeding on evil and exploiting each other and going for power plays whenever they can. Saruman wanted to best Sauron during the LOTR, so maybe he took advantage of their relative situations and was able to do so afterward.
Anyway, again just leaving this here in case its helpful. You obviously have a few voices in your ear these days, human and otherwise.
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