Wednesday, July 9, 2025

The fourth Knave

Over the past few days, I’ve been trying to puzzle out the meaning of "The plant is the three pages just starred by an asterisk," followed by an asterisk and then the italicized word or name Gloria. (See my post "Gloria.") I read that on a page that was itself marked with an asterisk, but I quickly decided that that obvious, self-referential reading was misdirection. The three "pages" are Tarot cards, the Page being equivalent to the Jack or Knave of the poker deck.

This thought soon led me to two rhymes, one featuring three Jacks (or the name Jack repeated three times) and the other three Knaves. (That's where that last post came from.)

Jack be nimble, Jack be quick,
Jack jump over the candlestick.

and

Rub-a-dub-dub,
Three men in a tub,
And who do you think they be?
The butcher, the baker,
The candlestick maker.
Turn them out, knaves all three.

Oddly, both rhymes feature a candlestick, which I thought might be significant. The candlestick (menorah) mentioned in the Bible is a representation of the Tree of Life, which could be a clue as to the identity of the "plant" with which the three Jacks/knaves/pages are identified. (As an aside, that Plant/Page juxtaposition could also be a Led Zeppelin reference.)

Finally I realized the obvious significance of "Rub-a-dub-dub": three Jacks in a tub. Bill recently had this to say about the Tub Man:

When I looked at the book image, the first book that actually jumped out at me was the Harriet Tubman book. When I saw the name, my mind did that weird thing where I saw the name as Harriet Tub Man. As in, a Man associated with a Tub. I mean, I saw it instantly.

Tubs have been a symbol representing Baptism (e.g., Pigeon Needs a Bath, by one of your favorite authors), and so I saw Tub Man as representing this in multiple ways - a Man who is in the Tub getting baptized, but also offering a Tub.

There are three Jacks in a tub, getting baptized, but a deck of cards has four Jacks. Where is the fourth? Well, obviously he's the dry Jack, the unbaptized one, who first came up in "Igxuhp zvmwqfb Jack dry stolen." Which Jack is the dry one? The inclusion of the word stolen in the message makes it almost too easy. Who could he possibly be but the Jack of Hearts?

The Queen of Hearts,
She made some tarts,
All on a summer's day.

The Knave of Hearts,
He stole those tarts
And took them clean away.

The King of Hearts
Called for the tarts
And beat the knave full sore.

The Knave of Hearts
Brought back the tarts
And vowed he'd steal no more.

This is absolutely definitive, as far as I'm concerned. There's no arguing with it. In my original post about the dry Jack, I even identified him with a character, played by myself in a script I co-wrote, who stole a pumpkin pie baked by his mother. The Queen is, conceptually, the "mother" of the Jack.

Get this. Technically, a pumpkin pie is not a pie but a tart. A pie sensu stricto must have a top crust, which a pumpkin pie does not.

Another early thought about the dry Jack message was that it must have something to do with Last Call, the Tim Powers novel I was reading at the time for sync-prompted reasons. I noted that the main character, Scott Crane, is "a Jack." Well, he's not just any Jack. The novel identifies him again and again with one specific card: the Jack of Hearts.

In a climactic scene in the novel, Scott is participating in a fateful game organized by his evil father, played with a very special deck of Tarot cards. For magical reasons, Scott needs to replace the deck with another one without anyone noticing. As a distraction, he spills his soda water on the table. This causes the expected commotion, with his father angrily reiterating that "these are hand-painted cards and must not get wet!" Scott successfully swaps the deck while everyone is cleaning up the water and notes that the deck he has stolen -- the same one his father just insisted "must not get wet!" -- is "the one with the Jack of Cups card that had split his eye forty-two years earlier" (making him a "one-eyed Jack" himself). This is the dry Jack, and getting it wet would spell disaster for the wicked.

Cups is the Italian and Tarot equivalent of the Anglo-French suit of Hearts.

The Jack of Hearts has come up once before on this blog: In "Fourth Down," I mention that the French refer to that card by the nickname La Hire, referring to one of Joan of Arc's closest comrades. In the present context, the title of that post has another potential meaning. With three Jacks in the tub but one still dry, it's "three down, one to go." With the baptism of the final Jack, we would be able to say "fourth down."

As documented in my post "Baptism," I addressed myself as what we now know is the Jack of Hearts:

"So, dry Jack," I thought to myself, "when are you going to get yourself baptized?"

As that post goes on to relate, the next day, moved by a great sense of spiritual urgency, I recited my Latin translation of the prayer Alma used before he baptized himself (Mosiah 18:12-14) and immersed myself in the sea.

So did that count? Is the fourth and final Jack now baptized? I reported some feedback on that question in my next post, "After baptism." First I did a one-card Tarot read and got the Moon, which shows a crustacean emerging from the water and onto a narrow path -- corresponding to the Book of Mormon's statement that baptism in water is the way one enters the strait and narrow path. I noted that the crustacean, though it looks like a crayfish or lobster, is the way the constellation Cancer the Crab has historically been represented and was almost certainly originally intended to represent that sign (which is governed by the Moon).

Traditional astrological correspondences identify the Page of Cups (Jack of Hearts) with the sign of Cancer. It requires very little imagination to see in the Moon card a depiction of the baptism of that formerly dry Jack.

Shortly after that reading, I was given three "gifts" in which it was impossible not to see synchronistic symbolism:


First, the shining blue-green crab -- corresponding to the baptized crustacean and the Page of Cups. Second, the sign of the Holy Ghost. Third, a pink star which I was at first unable to interpret. I still don't know exactly what it means, but the cryptic sentence in the Gloria book referred to "the three pages just starred." If those three pages are the three knaves in the tub, the three already-baptized Jacks, then being "starred" seems to have something to do with having been baptized. And the day after my baptism, I, too, was "starred," or gifted with a tiny star (the etymological meaning of asterisk).

This past Sunday, I was browsing /x/, and deep in one of the threads someone happened to post, apropos of nothing, this card from Aleister Crowley's Thoth deck:


I am somewhat allergic to this particular deck and have never bothered to learn much about it. I did not know until I saw it on Sunday that one of the Cups face cards has an amber crab in his cup. I saved the image because ages ago, c. 2003, I had a blog called Bouillabaisse for the Soul, and the header image was a cropped image of a Knight of Cups from an old Marseille deck into whose cup I had photoshopped the crayfish/crab from the Moon card of the same deck. At the time I had no idea whatsoever -- I didn't find out until this past Sunday -- that Crowley had made the very same addition to the very same card. In my case, it had no deep meaning; I just thought it was a humorous way of suggesting the seafood soup from Marseille for which my blog was named. Although I used the Knight card to create the image, I cropped out the horse, so he could just as easily be a Page.

I think this post represents an important breakthrough in understanding the dry Jack message, but of course it also raises new questions. For starters, who specifically are the other three Jacks? All will become clear with time, I think.

28 comments:

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

The Page of Cups also appeared in this post:

https://narrowdesert.blogspot.com/2025/02/i-will-restore-all-things-that-were-put.html

William Wright (WW) said...

The image of the Red Cup in the Knight of Cups card is interesting given some thoughts I had from yesterday.

I was in the car listening to an Unexplained Mysteries podcast on the Holy Grail. The Grail had come up first in the Indiana Jones movie, and of course the Monty Python definitive history.

I didn't know just how central the Holy Grail had become in Arthurian legend. The podcast then traced the stories to the Knights Templar, and from them to the Free Masons. This was a direct Mormon connection as well, given Masonic symbols in the temple. The podcast hosts referred to the Free Masons as "Stone Cutters", and my mind made the instant association with the Rose Stone. In my story, that Stone is the one cut from the mountain in Daniel's story, so this association with Stone Cutters was interesting.

In continuing to listen, I had this thought that the Rose Stone is, in fact, the Holy Grail - or, more specifically, that the legends of the Grail are based on the underlying reality of this hidden Stone. I would have thought this would have been a specific association I had made before, but I don't think I had (though it is possible).

Anyway, a "cup" can mean many things, including just referring to some vessel that contains or hold things, and thus a round Stone which contains a story is perfectly acceptable. At least that was my thinking yesterday. So, given that I had just imagined the Grail, or Cup, as this Red Stone, it was remarkable to see the Knight holding this Red Cup in the image.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

On a hunch, I searched the /x/ archive for "asterisk." This came up:

The answer is 42
Ascii code (*)
The asterisk or wildcard.
Means - whatever you want it to be.
There's your answer buddy

This is followed by a reference to "A butterfly who doesn't realize who has grown wings and still thinks its a caterpillar."

https://archive.4plebs.org/x/thread/40173628/#40173870

The number 42 appears in this post in connection with the Jack of Cups. That number reversed, 24, is the number assigned to the Jack of Hearts (the Heart card) in the Lenormand system.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Bill, that reminds me, I think I owe my readers some sort of report on that yoga on the farm Holy Grail book, which I did in fact buy and read.

William Wright (WW) said...

The number 42 is a direct link to another "Jack": Jackie Robinson.

Robinson was prominent in a strange and very specific dream I had in 2020. In the dream, I saw a close up of a black baseball player who was sliding into home base. My vision zoomed in even closer to his number on the front of his jersey, which was 42. After sliding into home, he was greeted by several of his teammates/ friends, who surrounded him and began wiping and shaking off the dust from his uniform.

I didn't know enough about Robinson to know his baseball number, so it was after waking up and doing some research that I realized the character in the dream was likely Jackie Robinson based on the specific and seemingly purposeful zooming of my vision to the number 42.

The sliding "home" seemed relevant, and also another reference to plates/ discs/ cups, etc., since it is called Home Plate. Home Plate, by the way, has the same shape as that red image in which the Holy Ghost sits in your crab-dove-star trifecta, just turned to the side and acting as a chevron or arrow pointing to the star. I think that could be a tie as well.

Home Plate also has, if you imagine it in the right way, the same shape as a cup or chalice.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Jackie Robinson and his number have come up multiple times on this blog as well.

William Wright (WW) said...

Jackie played for the Brooklyn Dodgers, which would be a strong tie to other things as well. Recently, the Brooklyn Bridge came up with that Mexican navy ship moving backwards to collide with it. As part of that incident, I realized that Brooklyn means "the broken land", and saw this as a possible allusion to Eressea, which had been broken or split in Pharazon's assault.

A "Dodger" is one who, according to Etymonline, is "practiced in artful shifts", and looking more at Dodge, gets to sudden, quick movements to evade something. This possibly ties to the "Jack be Nimble" rhyme - a quick and nimble Jack would be a good Dodger.

Leo said...

Just one small point: doesn't Nephi say it's after "a remission of your sins by Fire and by the Holy Ghost" that one is on the path? Or said another way "the Baptism of Fire and of the Holy Ghost"

Not after water baptism alone.

William Wright (WW) said...

To Leo's comment/ clarification, I think the bigger issue with anyone baptizing themselves is I don't think that is the way at all. It may have worked for Alma pre-Christ, and done for specific reasons, but Jesus clarified baptism at Bountiful, both in terms of specifying who had power to baptize and the manner in which they should do it.

Further, Moroni spent some of his final words in the Book of Mormon itself giving further insight into how baptism was conducted in the days of Jesus' Disciples. He did this specifically for the benefit of a future audience, specifically the Lamanites, but I think broadly applicable.

In Moroni 3, he first discusses how the Disciples (Elders), priests, and teachers were called and ordained. He then follows by giving the specifics of how they administered Communion/ Sacrament. He closed this particular summary of church practices in Moroni 6 by focusing on Baptism.

In his Baptism details, he says that Disciples, priests, and teachers were baptized only after "they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it." If they hadn't done this, they weren't baptized.

Further, they only baptized other individuals after those people "came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.

And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end."

Repentance, and a witness to the church that they had repented, was necessary before being baptized. And this baptism needed to be performed by those who had specifically been given that power to do so.

Ra1119bee said...

William,
If you recall I commented and provided
several links in much detail on your Black Sedan post
about what I believe to be the
significance of the 42 and its backwards 24.

I understand and respect that you may not be able
to read all of the comments from your readers
but I can't help but wonder now if the majority
of my comments including the 24/42 comment
in particular have been just a bit too political,
as I also connected
what I believe to be the significance of 42
and JACKIE Robinson and the Nigredo.

I understand ( and again respect ) your previous remark
on another post about not
being able to muster interest in politics however
most of my perspectives
comes from a big picture conclusion/theory so
perhaps I'm in the wrong space here on your blog.

Clairvoyants' " sees " the big picture FIRST, and
then they work backwards to research and find each
bread crumb aka dots, aka puzzle pieces which
led them there, so as to
answer the WHYS of the big picture.

Kinda like
an investigator. An investigator sees the crime ( big picture)
and then uses a fine-tooth comb to search
(through much research ) each and EVERY lead
( Not just one lead ) then connects
the puzzle pieces to find the answer that
makes the most sense and more importantly
answers the why.


In closing, and explaining my perspective, once again
(refer to my recent comment about my perspective
about everything in this duality dimension being political)
I'll share this about the Hermetic Mysteries , which
of course you know about the Magician's Table.

If you recall it was through the Magician's Table
and my Tulip dream is how I found Oswald Wirth
and you in 2021.


copy and paste from Microsoft Co-Pilot :
" As above, so below' is an ancient quote that describes the ideal
that what happens in a higher realm or plane of existence
also happens IN A LOWER REALM.

The phrase comes from Hermeticism and the Emerald Tablet
and it is used to describe the*** correspondent relationship
between the individual and the universe.****

The phrase
links the astral planes to the PHYSICAL realm,
referring that what happens in the heavens
WILL ALSO PLAY OUT ON EARTH."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And last but not least and for a bit of lighthearted
entertainment
regarding your 'muster" remark about politics :-)))))
check out the Beatles.
Note that on the White Album Mean Mr. Mustard is followed
by the song Polythene Pam.
Polyethene Pam is a deceiver.

Mean Mr Mustard
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMarHac3VpQ

As above, so below
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_above,_so_below


Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

It was clearly not a by-the-book baptism to satisfy by-the-book Christians, hence my repeated question, "Did that count?" It was a symbolic action, a demonstration of willingness and of a commitment to God and the Good, and a "real" baptism may or may not come later. I'm confident that it was a good thing to do and that it has been accepted. I think sometimes it's necessary to just do things, as guided by the Spirit, and not get hung up on the Mormon equivalent of "But that's not in the Bible!"

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Debbie, yes, that comment was why I connected 42 with 24.

Ra1119bee said...

William,
Ok.
I'm not sayin' that I need a shout out regarding
my comments or anything like that,
rather my intention is to share the information I've
been given through the paranormal to offer
a different perspective.

I want to respect your blog's purpose
regarding the subject matter and I
don't want it to appear that I've trying to
steer that purpose of your blog
in an entirely different
direction connecting the paranormal
with politics especially if politics is
not a subject that you yourself have
any interest in.
In other words I don't want to be the
fly in the ointment.

I only started to comment on your blog
in 2021 because of your bio mentioning
that you had interest in the topic of synchronicity
which in that I immediately felt a connection,
'cos I have a whole lot of puzzle pieces in that
subject.

So, I'll just leave it at that.

Leo said...

Bill I don’t really see an issue with the attempt even if it’s probably not the real thing. If there is still someone authorized on this earth he isn’t exactly accessible so I personally don’t think anyone can be blamed for trying something else as an experiment. My point was that if what he did is acceptable, what’s next should be a baptism of fire before finding himself on the path that leads to the stars…I mean…eternal life.

But if I had to guess, his notion that it was a test isn’t wrong even if the baptism itself was merely a gesture of what he yet lacks.

Ra1119bee said...

William,
Part 1 of 2

I thought you might find this interesting about
the Page of Cups.

In your Feb 2025 post : I will restore all things
I commented that I had a 2003 dream
about the Page of Cups.

Today I was able to find the actual dream
in my archives and it was
on Feb 6 2007, not 2003.

I actually titled the dream Cupid and the Cups,
but I had attached
a printed sheet of paper to the dream from a website I
must have found in 2007 about the Page of Cups
as obviously there is no Cupid of Cups card.

However when connecting the puzzle pieces now, I think
I found a connection between my dream and the Page
of Cups.

I can't copy and paste the dream as it is on paper
and it's not on my PC because
I've had several computer crashes since 2007.
However here's the dream:
In the dream I was in a huge auditorium with
a young attractive Black guy whom I felt was a celebrity.
At one point he showed me a book and told me to read
the chapter : Cupid and the Cups.

I recall opening the book and finding the chapter
and began to read it. At one point there were several
men who approached me and the celebrity and they
invited me to some other type of get together in LA.
I woke up
~~~~~

Note the symbolism of a huge auditorium . Auditoriums
are places where plays are performed, or speeches made
to a large collective of people.

Because there is no Cupid of Cups in the Tarot, I thought that
maybe the connection of the Black guy is the Nigredo symbolism
which the Nigredo begins all alchemical transformations.

I didn't write who I thought the Black celebrity was, so that
tells me that his appearance in the dream was a symbolic
one. Not literal.

Regarding my attachment of the information
about the Page of Cups to the dream,
note below that a Page is a ****servant, and a messenger.****
which would explain the Black guy's presence.

Copy and paste from wiki:

A page or page boy is traditionally a young male attendant
or ***servant, but may also have been a messenger
in the service of a nobleman.****

In medieval times, a page was an attendant
to a nobleman, a knight, a governor or a castellan.
Until the age of about seven, sons of noble family
would receive training in manners and basic literacy
from their mothers or other female relatives.

A young boy served as a page for about seven years,
running messages, serving,
cleaning clothing and weapons, and learning
the basics of combat.

He might be required to arm or dress the lord
to whom he had been sent by his own family.

Personal service of this nature was not considered
as demeaning, in the context of shared noble status
by page and lord.
It was seen rather as a form of education in return for labour.

there is also reference to young Black boys as a decorative page:

"During and following the Renaissance, it became fashionable
for black boys and young men to be decorative pages,
placed into fancy costumes and attending fashionable
ladies and lords.
This custom lasted for several centuries
and the "African page" became a staple
accoutrement of baroque and rococo style."
~~~~~~

Ra1119bee said...

William
Part 2
As someone like yourself who reads the Tarot ( I do Not)
you'll understand the duality of each card.

As you well know
everything has its shadow i.e. it's dual nature.
It's bitter/sweet, yin/yang, good/evil.

Copy and paste:

**Upright Meaning Guide
Page of Cups Upright Tarot Card Key Meanings:
Child, inner-child, youthfulness, idealism, sensitivity, dreamer,
****inner-voice, spirituality, psychic, message*****

***Reversed Meaning Guide
Page of Cups Reversed Tarot Card Key Meanings:

In a general context, the Page of Cups reversed
is not a great omen as it can bring bad news.
For instance, you could find you fall in love
with someone who does not return your feelings
or you may find that a social event you have been
looking forward to is cancelled.

Whatever form this news takes it could possibly
cause sadness, disappointment,
heartbreak or sorrow."
~~~~~~~

I'm not going to share what I've come to the conclusion
as far as the meaning and message to me personally
of Cupid and the Cups
but I now understand what that message is.

I've never actually interpreted my 2007
Cupid and the Cups dream before as
I had no clue what it meant.
I had to dig through a huge stack of my journals
to retrieve it as all these years nothing really brought
me back to it until your
post today so I wish to say Thank You for sharing.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_(servant)


https://www.thetarotguide.com/page-of-cups/

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

For reference, here’s Debbie’s earlier comment on 42:

https://narrowdesert.blogspot.com/2025/06/a-black-sedan-to-take-you-to-nearest.html?showComment=1751278861614#c7894497277426957600

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Further links between the stolen pumpkin pie story and the Knave of Hearts:

Pete and Dennis disguise themselves as mailmen to steal the pie. A mailman is a messenger, which is also one of the roles of a page.

In the rhyme, it is the King who calls for the stolen tarts. The stolen pumpkin pie is also demanded by “the King,” i.e. Elvis Presley.

The Hearts/Hertz connection has been extensively discussed on this blog. Pete and Dennis are radio repairmen by trade, and FM radio is based on Hertz.

William Wright (WW) said...

The gate is not just baptism, but repentance - Nephi highlighted this, and Moroni's words I think confirm this. If you stole something, repentance means you need to return it, or make it right somehow. And you have to do that before baptism. You've potentially skipped a step, is basically what I am saying, in addition to my other comments about what a real baptism looks like (and my guess as to why John the Baptist - if that is who Terry was - didn't like you).

Your emphasis on Cancer the Crab and its sign caught my attention re-reading your post. It actually brings me back to our shared date of July 22. You adopted that date as symbolic for you in some way because it was the anniversary of your first major spiritual experience, 22 is your lucky number, and you have a family member born on that day. I was partial to it because it is actually my own birthday. As you wrote about how personally meaningful July 22 was to you, it was actually my first clear realization that you and I are probably destined in some ways to see similar symbols but come to different conclusions or stories from them - sometimes very different. Unavoidable probably.

Anyway, July 22 is the very last day of the sign of Cancer.

Ra1119bee said...

Thought provoking in regards
to WW's post :


Properties of the number 22
Copy and Paste;
"Represents the movement, the infinity.

Symbol of the manifestation of the being in its
diversity and its history.

Represent the creation, which is the manifestation
of the 21, according to R. Allendy. It is amongst other things
the significance of the "principle of differentiation, 2,
being added to the initial differentiation of the Cosmos 20
to subdivide the parts and to generate, by this means, the complex mechanism of the nature - 2 + 2 = 4. (...)
With 22, we see the play of the opposite particular initiative
- 22 = ***11 x 2**** -, to balance in the natural mechanism".

Symbolizes the end of a cycle, and for the man,
the end of the obligatory reincarnations on the earth."

22 divided by 7 gives the number "pi", which represents
the mysterious and ***approximate*** ratio of the perimeter
of a circle to its diameter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

I too believe that number vibration is very powerful.
11/22/1963 on the 33 degree parallel.

https://www.ridingthebeast.com/numbers/nu22.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_that_22/7_exceeds_%CF%80

https://www.whypi.org/pi-value-22-7/

William Wright (WW) said...

Also, I looked into that "Rub-a-dub-dub" rhyme a bit more since it formed the sync basis for you formulating this story of Four Jacks or Knaves... three of them baptized in this tub, but a missing fourth that gets tied in from Tarot.

The history is interesting.

Apparently, in its original form, it was three maids who were in the tub. Three men were then mentioned (the same 3 job titles) as being there, presumably to look at the women in something like a peep show at the fair (or even some sources say the "tub" was slang for brothels or other similar establishments). Basically, respectable tradespeople were caught being somewhere they shouldn't have been.

As the rhyme was further adopted and used, including for children, mention of the maids was dropped entirely and you then had the three men themselves in the tub. Even in that iteration, they weren't mentioned as Knaves, but rather were visualized as being in a tub together sailing off to sea. This changed the meaning, or actually just made the rhyme nonsensical, I suppose.

But, importantly in my view, the change, and then your tying these men to baptism, gets at another inversion or something meaning the opposite. Sordid men who were watching women take a bath are now somehow being symbolically represented as being baptized in the tub that the women were performing the peep show in. Strange. And we get this because of how garbled the original story became.

This actually gets to another alternative meaning to the "Plant" related to the three pages. As you noted, Pages can refer to these Knaves.

You assumed the Plant was just that - some kind of vegetation and presumably the Tree of Life, I guess. But "plant" can mean a few other things. One of which is to insert or introducing false evidence, statements, documents, stories, etc. As in, to "plant" evidence.

Might be a stretch, but given the change or insertion of the Men from being peeping Toms to baptized Pages, I think worth consideration. Viewing in this way would also give a different meaning to the use of the Asterisk, which in documents is often used to add additional information, whether a footnote or even later additions or changes to a text, as well as censor unacceptable language.

Given that one of the themes is corrupted, modified, and censored texts and stories, this reading seemed at least applicable.

Anyway, here is the oldest version of the Rub-a-dub-dub rhyme:

Hey! rub-a-dub, ho! rub-a-dub, three maids in a tub,
And who do you think were there?
The butcher, the baker, the candlestick-maker,
And all of them gone to the fair.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Bill, if you're implying that I need to repent for the crimes we read Pharazon committed, I reject that idea. I've already explained briefly why I believe it is neither possible nor required for anyone to "repent" for things they guess they may have done in some previous incarnation. You may disagree, of course, but I don't think the opposite position is easily reconciled with Moroni 8.

I may lay out the logical and scriptural case for my position in more detail in a future post.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Bill, I looked up that history of the rhyme, too, but I think it is the familiar version that is synchronistically relevant. It's the only one to mention three "knaves," which is the only thing tying it to the "three pages" reference. But sure, the other versions should be kept in mind as well.

Leo said...

WJT I'd be curious to understand why you reject the idea of repenting. You seem to be using that term in the standard Mormon way, which is to be super duper sorry and feel really bad about yourself. Basically self hate. But Bill clearly used it in a very different way -- of restitution or fixing something, which to me sounds pretty downright reasonable. After all if someone who broke something says "my bad" but isn't willing to make it right, wouldn't that be an easy way to tell that they actually don't care and haven't "repented"? IOW, why do you reject the idea of fixing something *if* indeed you did break it?

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Leo, I've decided to devote a post to that and related questions. Stay tuned.

William Wright (WW) said...

No one is asking you to repent of something you are only guessing you've done. If I am right, at some point it will be pretty clear and no more guessing involved.

As for Moroni 8... you keep using that chapter. I do not think it means what you think it means. I think you are applying it inappropriately, perhaps, to the potential situation at hand.

And as for whether you think the evolution of Rub-a-dub-dub is relevant in how the Men have been completely changed in the story to be now apparently baptized in your story vs. peeping Toms in the original, I think is just evidence for how much these syncs are subject to cherry picking and individual interpretation. It isn't relevant to you because it undercuts your interpretation, which you said in this post was beyond challenge or argument. It is relevant to me because it speaks to a larger theme that has been going on for some time. The use of sync, in other words, is highly subjective. I experience the same thing when working through the symbols, by the way, so I notice it in others. Not trying to say it is just you.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Bill, I thought you were trying to say it was inappropriate for me to have “baptized” myself without first restoring Numenor or something, even though I have nothing but guesses (based on what you rightly point out is the inherently subjective art of interpreting syncs) as to my possible past-life role in its fall.

Ra1119bee said...

William,
As mentioned, I personally do not try to get in where I don't fit in
(meaning barging in a conversation or a subject which
I have no puzzle pieces for ) however
on the subject of reincarnation, I do have a few puzzle pieces
which I've shared with you many times before.

The random Past Life Reading I had in 1974 was an extremely
huge puzzle piece for me as the Reader validated
what my soul already knew.

The reader 'read' my soul as he knew about
my levitation dreams
which those levitation dreams started in 1965 after
my grandmother Sarah passed over.
I was 10 years old.
The reader did not know me before
the reading nor I him .

In 1974 I was 19. I met the reader after finding
his ad in the classified section of the Dayton Daily News.
I wasn't looking for a past life reading. I randomly
stumbled upon it.

Granted it is true I was familiar with Edgar Cayce's work ,
as I was trying to find an answer for the recurring levitation
dreams. But I certainly didn't know about Cayce at
10 years old.

When I was about 15, 16 or so I would hunt in
old bookstores for occult books
about dreams which led to me finding many paperbacks
of Edgar Cayce's work.

My mother loved to read ( mostly fiction )
and she would take me to old bookstores.
I can still 'smell' the books! It was a lovely
experience.


My point being is that ( and I M H O ) no one else can tell
you 'who or what' you were in a past life. Again in 1974
the reader just told me what my soul already knew.

When he told me that I had a past life as a Monk in Tibet,
I ' knew' that was very possible as I've always had an
attraction for that part of the world since I was 7 years old
after seeing an episode of the Ed Sullivan Show that featured
a performance of young Asian girls doing an
acrobatic performance.
The past life reader did NOT know that.

When I was a teenager my mother told me that
her best friends' brother asked her( my mother)
about me when I was an infant . He said as a joke :
"Mary, where did you get that chinkum
baby.? And yeah, I know 'chinkum ' is
a derogatory name for a Chinese person
but that's how they rolled back in the day.

Anywho, in 1974 when the reader started to tell me about
an incarnation in Atlantis, and levitation,
I broke down and started shaking and crying and
saying to myself ; how did he know about my dreams?!

He also told me that my soul has always been
on earth during times great upheavals and it scared
him why my soul is here now.
The reader's great upheaval remark is one
of the main reasons why I believe in an
upcoming Shifting of Ages
and how politics will play into that event , as politics
always has done.
All politics is about people with egos.

IMHO, this upcoming 'great shift aka great reset
' ain't humanity's first rodeo.

Again, my past life reading was in 1974.

My point being and I absolutely believe this
because of that extremely PERSONAL past life experience
and of course, the gazillion dreams throughout my lifetime
(as opposed to something I read in a book), and that is this :
only OUR Soul knows WHY we are here.

I believe that our soul has been in many different skins,
both genders and many many cultures as
(and especially if you believe in reincarnation)
the soul's quest is gaining knowledge through lessons
learned and taught (the good, the bad and the ugly).
And yes I believe in Karma.

The only way that the soul evolves is to walk a mile in many
many skins , moccasins and cultures.
That collectiveness is what we as humans share.
It's our harmony (compassion) with our fellow man/woman.
There by the grace of God, go I.

My humble opinion : It's our EGO that separates us.
When we let go of our EGGO, we're free.

The fourth Knave

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