Tuesday, August 26, 2025

That old "Fire and Ice" sync

My 2019 post "Fire and ice" tells the story, insofar as I could remember it, of the first synchronicity ever to get my attention. It involved coming across the same four lines from Robert Frost's poem "Fire and Ice" twice within the space of an hour -- once in a sermon on chastity and once in a popular science book. At the time of that post, I thought that I might have been around 12 years old and that the book might have been one of Carl Sagan's, but I couldn't remember very clearly. However, I'm now confident that I've found the two documents that figured in the sync. It wasn't Sagan, and I wasn't 12.

The sermon was "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments," a speech delivered by Jeffrey R. Holland on January 12, 1988, at Brigham Young University, of which institution he was at that time the president. Here is where he first quotes Frost:

May I begin with half of a nine-line poem by Robert Frost. (The other half is worth a sermon also, but it will have to wait for another day.) Here are the first four lines of Frost’s “Fire and Ice.”

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.

A second, less poetic but more specific opinion is offered by the writer of Proverbs:

Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned? . . .
But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.
A wound and dishonour shall he get; and his reproach shall not be wiped away. [Proverbs 6:27–33]

In getting at the doctrinal seriousness, why is this matter of sexual relationships so severe that fire is almost always the metaphor, with passion pictured vividly in flames? What is there in the potentially hurtful heat of this that leaves one’s soul—or perhaps the whole world, according to Frost—destroyed, if that flame is left unchecked and those passions unrestrained? . . .

Notice that the Frost quote is immediately followed by a second quote, described as "less poetic" and "by the writer of Proverbs." This will be relevant later.

Later in the speech, Holland quotes the same four lines of Frost once more:

Someday, somewhere, ­sometime the morally unclean will, until they repent, pray like the rich man, wishing Lazarus to “dip . . . his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame” (Luke 16:24).

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.

The popular science book was, it turns out, Hyperspace by Michio Kaku, published on March 24, 1994, just nine days after my 15th birthday. The four lines from Frost serve as an epigraph to the 14th chapter:


As in the Holland speech, Frost is immediately followed by a second quote, in prose, in this case Yogi Berra's "It ain't over 'til it's over." The legacy of Yogi Berra is quite similar to that of the authors of Proverbs: a collection of short, memorable sayings.

I clearly wasn't 12 when this sync occurred. Given my reading habits at the time, I almost certainly would have read Hyperspace as soon as it was available at the local public library, so probably in 1994, when I was 15 years old. That's a reasonable time for me to have read Holland's speech, too. Jeffrey R. Holland became a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles -- one of the CJCLDS's top 15 leaders worldwide -- on June 23, 1994, just two months after Hyperspace was published. That would be a natural time for people to be reading and recommending old speeches by Jeffrey R. Holland, such as "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments."

The only remaining question mark is how I came to read Holland and Kaku within an hour of each other. My family was quite strict about Sabbath observance, and I wouldn't have been reading a secular book like Hyperspace on a Sunday -- but I find it hard to imagine myself reading a sermon on chastity on any other day of the week! My best guess is that we read Holland's speech, or part of it, in early-morning seminary on a weekday. Since I was at that time following a rather loose "homeschooling" program that mostly consisted of just reading whatever I wanted, I might easily have come home from a Very Special Lesson on chastity in early-morning seminary and turned immediately to a pop-sci book for "school." (Actually, everybody else should be putting that word in scare-quotes. School as "leisure" is etymologically correct.) That's my best guess as to what happened.

Or perhaps the "within an hour" bit was misremembered, just as I'd misremembered by age at the time. Certainly it was a very short interval that made the coincidence seem impossible.

What prompted my revisiting of this old Frost sync was the more recent Frost sync documented in "The woods are lovely, dark and deep." Interestingly, this more recent sync also involves someone quoting only four lines of a longer poem by Frost. This quotation was in a movie whose Chinese name translates to Nine Shots. Holland makes a point of saying that the Frost poem he is quoting is nine lines in length, and Hyperspace was published nine days after my birthday.

2 comments:

NLR said...

Interesting.

Not being able to read ancient Hebrew, nor having grown up speaking it, it's hard to say the second is less poetic. But I guess he meant as an English speaker.

William Wright (WW) said...

It may be interesting given my previous comments around a "Bear" that the Robert Frost quote in "Fate of the Universe" is followed by that quote by Yogi Berra. The actual cartoon bear, Yogi Bear, had a name that was based on this baseball player.

Yogi Berra's real name was Lawrence Peter Berra, by the way. So we have another Peter link, and to a Bear, nonetheless. In addition, these quotes are found in the 14th chapter. 14 is the number I had assigned to Peter-Ingwe, when I was exploring that story, as being the final or last of the 14 Vanyar who remain ungathered (82 currently taken somewhere, 14 still TBD, for the total of 96 of the 144 that needed to be gathered first).

It looks like I wrote those comments, which are on found on your "The Smith and the Waster" post and link back directly to that Fire and Ice post, at the same time you were writing this post.

Anyway, the association with Fire and Ice with Adultery, per Holland's speech, also struck me as relevant, given previous commentary regarding associations with the Great Whore, and the fall of her kingdom. In terms of the end by fire, it is that Great Whore who Joseph Smith specifically cites as the Tares to be burned in his writings found in D&C 88:

"And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all the nations drink of the wine of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood - she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea - behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it."

Given that we are talking about "the end", and the potential for all who want to come and repent of associations with the GAC (all of us, as represented by the language of the Great Whore having made the nations to drink the wine of her fornication), it seems Yogi Berra's quote is also potentially relevant. It ain't over till it's over.

Given the association of Peter with gates, doorways, and keys, it also seems interesting that these links are in a book called "Hyperspace". That term has been used or associated with Star Wars, and on my blog I used it frequently to describe the bending or manipulation of spacetime, or the Warp and Woof of reality, in order to take people to a place very far away from this earth. If this Earth is Hell (likely so, in my opinion, given a devil rules it), then the tradition of the Gates of Hell not prevailing against the rock on which Peter's name was word-gamed seems even more interesting in relation to the concept of Hyperspace and bringing people out of hell and to a safe place, taking leaps from lion's heads, etc.

That old "Fire and Ice" sync

My 2019 post " Fire and ice " tells the story, insofar as I could remember it, of the first synchronicity ever to get my attention...