Note: Post updated to include Ninja Turtles and a few other things from Bill's comments.
Flour Boy is the Keebler Elf Elwood. His card is the Jack of Clubs, corresponding to the Page of Wands and the Whip. His suit corresponds to the element of Fire and the planet Mars. In "Rub-a-dub-dub," he is the Baker, as a baker works with both flour and fire. In "We Didn't Start the Fire," he is Buddy Holly because magic wands are traditionally made of holly wood, and the Rider-Waite deck shows its wands as budding. I have tentatively identified him with Moses, who worked miracles with a rod (magic wand) and provided "bread" (manna). Bill has proposed that Moses is also the Brother of Jared. Among the Beatles, he is Paul McCartney, de facto the second-ranking member of the band. My uncle Bill maintains that McCartney is the incarnation of the god Mars, so that fits. Debbie points out that one of Paul's solo albums is called Flowers in the Dirt and has fiery imagery on the cover, so that's a potential link to Flour ("Flower") Boy and to Fire. He is the second horseman, who rides a Red Horse and brings war, which obviously fits with Mars and Fire. Among the Ninja Turtles, he is Donatello, whose weapon is a wooden staff.
Fudge Boy is the Keebler Elf Buckets. His cards are the Jack of Hearts, the Page of Cups, and the Heart. A bucket is like a big cup, and fudge lies at the “heart” of an E. L. Fudge cookie. His suit is linked to Water and Venus. He does not appear in the tub in "Rub-a-dub-dub" and is thus implicitly the Dry Jack. The “Jack dry stolen” message is consistent with his being the Knave of Hearts, who stole the tarts. In "We Didn't Start the Fire," he is U-2, but I don't have a good interpretation of that yet. He is Pharazon, Peter, Thomas Marsh (closely linked to the bucket) — and, in some sense or the other, me. (The details here are still developing. I believe Bill still sees me and Pharazon as separate from the other two and has us as Flour Boy. There are also various other proposed characters, such as Ingwe, which I don't yet have a good feel for.) Among the Beatles, he is George Harrison, since the name George has repeatedly been linked to Pharazon and me. Debbie notes that George sings the song "Savoy Truffle," which is named after chocolate and is thus a link to Fudge Boy. As the third horseman, he rides a Black Horse, carries scales, and brings famine. This fits with Bill's idea that Cassius, he of the "lean and hungry look," is symbolically linked with this figure. George Harrison had a solo album called Dark Horse and founded a record label called Dark Horse Records. Among the Ninja Turtles, he is Raphael.
Finally, we have Star Boy, who is the Keebler Elf Fast Eddie. His cards are the Jack of Diamonds, the Page of Coins or Pentacles, and the Scythe. A pentacle is a five-pointed star inscribed in a circle, which links both to the name Star Boy and to circle imagery to be discussed below. In Lenormand cartomancy, the Scythe (Jack of Diamonds) represents speed, swiftness, suddenness, etc., and thus links to the name Fast Eddie. Pentacles are associated with the element of Earth and with Saturn. Saturn is associated with slowness, making it an odd link for Fast Eddie, but I’m confident it’s correct. The Scythe is a link to both Saturn and speed, and there’s also the idea that Saturn is Mercurius Senex, an alter ego of swift Mercury. In “Rub-a-dub-dub,” he is the Candlestick Maker, associated with speed by way of the “Jack Be Nimble” rhyme. In “We Didn’t Start the Fire,” he is Hula Hoops. This sounds similar to Jah-ho-e-oop, a name of the Swift Messenger, and is also a link to Saturn with its rings. Bill associates the Swift Messenger with lots of different figures, including Faramir, Ether, Abinadi, and (I infer) himself. Among the Beatles, he is Ringo Starr, whose name links both to Star Boy and to the ring imagery of Saturn and Hula Hoops. In Help!, Ringo wears a ring with a large ruby on it. Since a ruby resembles a red diamond, this is a link to the red suit of Diamonds. As the last of the horsemen, he rides a Pale Horse and is identified with death, which fits with the Scythe. Among the Ninja Turtles, he is Michelangelo, whose weapon is the nunchaku, which consists of two sticks joined with a chain. Ringo Starr, the drummer, also uses two sticks.
12 comments:
Neat, those were my quick guesses at the horsemen.
Interesting inference. Bill's posts always gave me the impression that Faramir is an unknown quantity in the mortal sense.
Maybe. I obviously don’t have a great track record when it comes to inferring what Bill believes.
William,
I typed the following yesterday and of course
hadn't seen this new post, but I do
believe this is on topic with The Ruby Ring
post as well as the 4 Horseman,
especially the Black Horse which
I personally believe that we are in the days
of.
Recall I linked last year the Black
and White Horse running through London.
I felt very strongly then, last year,
that it was a
sign. ( I reposted the link below)
Here's yet another Saturn connection
that I wrote yesterday.
Part 1 of 2
Just wanted to add this one more thought
about Saturn's reach especially in cinema.
Case in point, the 1964 fantasy movie
Mary Poppins.
Mary Poppins somewhat mirrors your description of
Stately Bev.
You wrote:" Bev looked to be in her thirties
and had a face one would call handsome
rather than pretty. She wore no makeup or jewelry
and had something of a puritanical air about her.
She wore a long cream-colored dress of 19th-century
cut and had her hair up in a bun. "
~~~~~
Mary Poppins, although her character does wears
makeup and is more pretty than you describe Bev to be
however Mary Poppins does wear her hair up in a bun
and wears 19 Century clothing.( see link )
You described Bev being more like Athena
which is interesting as Athena is also a Virgin
goddess, which in my recent comment
I mentioned Virgo the Virgin and
the month of the harvest, which
is September, and ember month.
Colors being amber/honey/golden.
Regarding Saturn, in the Mary Poppins links
note all the black clothing
worn, especially the black hats, which
the brim of the hats which 'circles'
the head symbolic of Saturn's ring.
Many men back in the day wore hats,
including modern day 1950's through mid 1960's.
However after the 4 Mop Tops arrived
changed almost everything.
Also regarding Saturn, Mary Poppins'
friend Bert is a Chimney Sweep.
In the video Chim Chim Cher-ee
note Bert singing with the two children.
The little boy wears black and his
sister wears amber colored clothing
almost the color of a pumpkin.
If I recall pumpkins has been in the sync
stream, no?
William
Part 2
Also golden is the color of the Philosopher's Stone,
the end of the Alchemical Experiment,
which is why Donald Trump has turned
everything in the White House to Gold.
Also Mary Poppins surname.
Replace the vowels and Pop becomes
Pep, as in Sergent Pepper , so
connecting back to the Beatles.
Pepper is in the Piperaceae family.
I recall Pop being in the sync stream
several months ago.
The best known pepper is Piper nigrum.
Yet another connection to the Nigredo and Saturn.
All 4 Beatles had dark hair. No Blondes.
Also replacing vowels ,Pop becomes Pip
which is Pan.
Copy and paste: asterisks mine
"Pan, the Master Piper
Pan is seen here seated on a rock,
pipe in hand, with a curved,
gnarled throwing*** stick used for hunting hares
*** at his feet.
The master piper and lover of dance was
often portrayed playing joyful music and dancing
with the nymphs or with the boisterous, drunken retinue
of the god Dionysus.
His greatest gifts to humankind were laughter
and good humor, which, coupled with his sexual vitality,
ensured the fertility of the fields and the flocks.
He was not only associated with**** music
but also with ****the sounds of nature —
**** the echoing hillsides, the cry of the wind,
and the call of beasts.****
~~~~~~
I placed asterisks around stick, because I recall
WW mentioning sticks.
Pan keeps the beat-tles. Ring-0 was
a drummer.
Also I placed asterisks around the sounds
of nature and echoing hillsides.
Do recall my recent comment about the
movie The Sound of Music and that
connection with deer, hills and L's.
Everything is connected.
Pan, the Master Piper
https://www.imj.org.il/en/content/pan
Mary Poppins - Chim Chim Cher-ee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG6O4N3wxf8
Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious (from Mary Poppins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rihNRTTcztQ
Cavalry horses run loose through London
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNilQqPwCg0
William,
You wrote: "Among the Beatles, he is George Harrison
, since the name George has repeatedly been
linked to Pharazon and me.
~~~~~~
I'd like to add that do consider that the name
George means an earth tiller. Someone who tills
the dark soil, so as to plant new seed.
Given the dark connection, it could be
regarded as evil/bad but transformation
from the dark to the light is absolutely vital
for growth.
In the Mary Poppins video that I just posted:
Chim Chim Cher-ee, note
that the character Bert (the Chimney Sweep)
mirrors my perspective and says to
the children that the darkness is a doorway
to a place of enchantment, which I absolutely
agree. Gotta go through the dark to
get to the light.
Also in Mary Poppins', the father
of the children was name George Banks
who was a junior offer in a London bank.
Note that banks are where valuables are
stored but also the riverbank is a vital interface
between the aquatic environments
and the surrounding land.
Although I worked at a bank for over 30 years
and retired early in 2009
I still dream of having to go back to work at
a bank.
In my waking life there is no way in
hell I would work in the banking industry again.
Every time I wake up from a 'back to bank'
dream, I shudder at the thought.
But then a couple of years ago it dawned
on me the meaning of the bank dreams
which I now believe the dreams were
messages from my soul
reminding me that I have a valuable riverbank
resource to tap into which I believe
that bank is knowledge.
Especially knowledge of the metaphysical.
After I solved those 'return to bank' puzzle
dreams, the dreams/nightmares stopped.
Returning back to George:
Recall my many comments about the symbolic
meaning of George and the Georges in
history, media, mythology etc.
A teacher like yourself, would certainly
be a symbolic archetype of an earth tiller.
George Harrison was an earth tiller in
the sense that not only was he a Beatle
(absolutely planting new seeds and
changing culture dramatically)
but George was also very deeply in
a spiritual quest which began
at the production and filming of Help!
when he was introduced to Eastern Religions.
I just found this article about George Harrison, which
I think mirrors my perspective as well.
Copy and paste:
"As the lead guitarist of the world's biggest rock band
and a prolific song writer, the Beatles' George Harrison
has secured his place in pop culture history.
But his greatest legacy may be the way his
decades-long spiritual quest shaped the ways the
West looks at God, gurus and life.
the article continues...
"Both projects are titled "Living in the Material World,"
a Hindu-inspired phrase Harrison chose for a 1973
song that illuminates his theology and sense
of artistic vocation:
"Got a lot of work to do / Try to get a message through /
And get back out of this material world."
~~~~~~
I personally believe George's reference to getting
out of the material world
meant transcending the illusion.
Interesting that George too, like you and I, was a Pisces
and as Pisces, I believe that we serve or sacrifice
as reminders that water is needed when the soil
becomes cracked and dry,
in other words, I believe we are riverbanks.
Note that in the 12 zodiac symbols
the twin fish tied together (meaning to serve or sacrifice)
are the only symbols which does not live on land.
How George Harrison changed the way we believe
ttps://www.ncronline.org/news/spirituality/how-george-harrison-changed-way-we-believe
Card suits have been associated with the indoeuropean social classes: swords/spades represent the military nobility; clubs the peasants; hearts/cups the priestly class; and diamonds/coins/pentacles the merchants. I’m trying to figure out how this fits with the symbolism presented in your post.
Regarding spades and clubs, and their corresponding associations with Jupiter and Mars: According to Dumezil, there were two indoeuropean warrior archetypes. One, the Indra type, represented a more civilized warrior, who wore armor, and whose weapon of choice was the spear or the bow and arrow; the other, the Vaiyu type, was more brawn than brain, and carried a club. Both Indra and Vaiyu were metheorological gods, Indra being associated with storms and lightning and Vaiyu with the wind. Interestingly, the Indra type either usurped the function, or merged with the sovereign sky god. Thus, in India, Indra became the king of the gods; in Greece and Rome, the sovereign Zeus/Jupiter was also the god of lightning; the Norse Odin had both sovereign and warrior aspects. Therefore, the association of the Jack of spades with Jupiter fits more or less with this interpretation.
The main problem with the correspondence between the Jack of clubs and Mars is that Mars is first and foremost a war god, whereas the suit of clubs is considered to represent peasants, and you also associate the Jack of clubs with flour, bread and flowers. However, although Mars/Ares is usually represented wearing Greek arms and armor, he is “the god who rages”. In personality, he is more similar to the club-wielding Vaiyu than to Indra. And according to Frazer, Mars had some agrarian aspects. Perhaps this is not so surprising, considering that before standing armies, soldiers would be mustered from amongst serfs or plebs whose normal occupation would be farming.
Sergio, as should be obvious from the inclusion of Keebler Elves and Beatles, this post is about a special use of this symbolism by the sync fairies, not about the historical or traditional meanings of the suits.
The European suit of Wands or Clubs evolved from the Mamluk suit of Polo Sticks and is thus very unlikely to have represented the peasantry. In terms of their ultimate origins, all the suits come from China, where they represented nothing more interesting than denominations of money. (Wands, and its mahjong cousin Bamboos, were originally strings of 100 coins. Cups and Swords most likely developed from the Chinese characters for 10,000 and 10.)
More generally, I think the fact that each suit has its own king, queen, knight, and knave is evidence against the idea that each suit represents a social class.
In support of your aligning John-Aragorn-Thingol with the White Horse is the Santa Claus association. Another name for Santa is St. Nicholas. Nicholas means "victory of the people", with St. Nick meaning simply the Saint of Victory. Etymonline has Victory from the past participle stem of "vincere" which means "to overcome, conquer".
Your association of the Swift Messenger with Saturn and the strange relation between a planet known for moving slowly with swiftness is extremely interesting given we see the same thing happen in Joseph Smith's GAEL and the Book of Abraham, only there it is the Swift Messenger associated with Kolob.
In the GAEL, Joseph Smith says this about Kolob:
"Kli flosisis signifies Kolob in its motion, which is swifter than the rest of the twelve <fixed stars>; going before, being first in motion, being delegated to have power over others. to regulate others in their time"
Here we get that Kolob is the fastest, swifter than the other twelve. However, exactly like Saturn, we learn the Abraham that Kolob revolves much slower than the world Abraham is standing on. God says that Abraham's world at that time revolves 1,000 times for every one time that Kolob does so, and even calls Kolob and these higher order stars/ planets "slower" and thus greater in their order.
So, we have the strange contrast or contradiction between Kolob/ Swift Messenger being both the fastest but also the slowest, just as you have done with the symbol of Saturn.
One point on this is the above quote mentions "kli flosisis" and ascribes it specifically to Kolob and its motion. The remarkable thing is that exact phrase also appears in Facsimil 2, in the same image both you and I independently noted, with the two apes facing each with stars/stones above their heads. There, "Kli-flo-is-es" is described as the medium through which our earth does/ will receive its power. The fact that Kli flo is is is in the GAEL associated with motion, and in the Facsimile with light, power, and communication I think harmonized very well with our association of the Stones with both movement (going to another place) as well as light, messages, and communications (the traditional function of the Palantiri).
Your tying John-Thingol to the White Horse and to the one who Conquers then has me thinking that in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles we need to flip Leonardo and Raphael.
Within this framework, I think Michelangelo and Donatello are fairly clearly spoken for with Swift Messenger and Moses/ Brother of Jared, so no changes there.
However, I had originally had Leonardo as Pharazon-Peter, but I think we change this to Thingol. Splinter named the turtles after the various Italian renaissance artists, and Leonardo's full name then would be Leonardo da Vinci. "Vinci" is a name that also means "Victory", and get us right back to one who conquers. Further, as you mentioned, both Thingol and Aragorn have been associated very notably with Swords, and this is Leonardo's weapon.
This leaves us Raphael as Pharazon-Peter, which at first seemed like a default thing with no strong reasoning. I then, however, relooked up the name, and Raphael means "God has healed". In my earlier story from last year, the central theme of association Pharazon with Peter was the element of healing and God having done something here. Further, this name fits very well with Peter's injunction to kill and eat unclean beasts, and things that God has cleansed or healed no longer being common.
I looked more into Raphael, however, and his wiki noted that he was commonly referred to simply as "Raph". When I saw this, I immediately recognized this as an Elvish word, but I didn't know what it meant (and I wasn't sure I wouldn't go to Eldamo and be mistaken, and there was no Raph).
There is, though, and it is a direct hit. The Elvish word "Raph" means "seize, grab, snatch". That exact word, Seize, has come up several times before in reference to Pharazon, the Numenoreans, and their seizure of the flowers. Further, the word "seize" was used in my dream of the spider Aragog from Harry Potter. I related it as part of a comment to you in another post, but here that is again, with the specific focus on Seize:
"On Friday morning, I dreamed of Aragog, the spider from Harry Potter. In the dream, Aragog yelled in a loud voice "I will seize the book!". This did not seem or feel like a good thing, at the time, but unlike you, I have a natural aversion to spiders.
He followed up this first exclamation by doing something like lunging forward while yelling a second thing "I will wear it!" I then woke up, and it was all pretty disturbing.
If I am being fully candid, the Aragog symbol made me think of you, though I am not sure entirely why. I was actually thrown off to see a male spider in my dream, since Ungoliant, a female, has been dominating spider conversation and imagery on my end.
But the way Aragog said "Seize", so specifically, reminded me that "Usurper", which I've brought up before in relation to James/ Jacob/ Jack, means "to wrongfully appropriate, to seize". It just seemed like such specific wording, I couldn't help but make the connection to you, or at least some of my guesses. Sorry."
I had been thinking about the Mars-flower connection and thought of Ovid’s story of the birth of Mars. As Ovid tells it, Mars had no father. His mother, Juno, became pregnant when the goddess Flora touched her belly with a magic flower (flos in Latin). That Latin word made me think of Kli-flos-is-is, but I couldn’t remember what it meant and made a mental note to look it up. Then I checked the comments and found that Bill was, for entirely different reasons, also thinking about Kli-flos-is-is!
I will leave this here, because it seemed to tie to earlier symbolism of Pharazon and the Numenoreans.
Last night my son chose to watch the movie Transformers, the 2007 original one that Michael Bay directed. He had never seen anything Transformers, and I only vaguely remembered the movie.
But, Transformers is going to be an interesting choice and one I will pay attention to given Optimus Prime and some symbols we explored there. Further, I mentioned this mapping of individuals back to the Mount of Transfiguration, and Transfiguration and Transformation mean the same thing.
In any case, the movie, besides having no real plot and involving just lot so things blowing up, didn't disappoint on the symbols.
The concept of a Frozen Man or Iceman has been associated with Pharazon and this notion of Numenor being buried under ice for awhile now. In the movie, Megatron, the leader of the Decepticons, had been, go figure, buried under ice since about 10,000 BC (10,000 being a number that brings the date very close to Daymon's own timeline with respect to the Numenorean fall). This happened as a result of his quest to obtain the All Spark. At this point, I realized we had a link via the name Megatron between the Frozen Man/ Pharazon and Meglin/ Maeglin. In earlier comments, I had linked Pharazon to Meglin via "The Meg", which features the Megalodon. So we had these two Megas serving as connection points.
The top secret project that kept the discovery of Megatron under wraps was literally called "Project Ice Man".
Further, one of the main MacGuffins of the story was a pair of magical spectacles. These spectacles acted as a key that would allow someone to find the All Spark. The All Spark was some kind of magical cube that granted life, which of course also has Numenorean undertones as to why someone would want it (and thus Megatron's quest for it, and subsequent Icing). We've also seen cube symbolism before in the form of the Tesseract, and even in the first part of that name, with Tess/ Tessa.
Interestingly, though, in hearing All Spark, I thought I should reverse engineer that into Elvish. I was confident that I had seen Spark recently somewhere while searching there, so I was curious. I had, and it links right back to the word "Tin". Tin, in Elvish, means "spark, sparkle, twinkle of stars", etc. I thought it was interesting given all of your tin references recently.
Also, deception/ deceive has also come up, and here we had Megatron leading a group whose name etymologically links to Deception (Decepticons) opposing Optimus Prime.
Here is the brief scene in which they discover frozen Megatron - it is short, but you can even just skip to the 1 minute mark and watch the last 30 seconds or so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoEu9280q18
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