Monday, November 29, 2021

John the Drowner

Yesterday morning, I read this passage in Roger Hathaway's The Mystic Passion.

When Jesus went through the drowning of his human self, before John the Baptist, He knew the significance of yielding to the flood of drowning water, and that is why God spoke and said He was well pleased. Most of the people that John was baptizing were having their sins washed away, experiencing a cleansing, but Jesus was yielding the human nature to a death.

I found this striking because, though I have often heard baptism described as a symbolic death and resurrection, the figurative language tends to focus on burial ("buried in the waters of baptism"); I had never heard anyone call it a drowning before.

On the evening of the same day, I received an email with a link to a YouTube video of a conversation between John Butler and Rupert Sheldrake, and I watched most of it. Beginning at the 14:29 mark, Sheldrake proposes that John the Baptist was literally drowning people.

And I personally like John the Baptist because I think John the Baptist was really involved in powerful rites of passage. Basically, I think he was a drowner, and I think he held people under in the Jordan just long enough to induce a near-death experience by drowning.

And as you know, people who've had near-death experiences often say their lives totally changed. They've gone out of their body. They've gone into a totally different realm full of joy and light and meet dead people who are now gloriously resplendent with light, and they love being there, but they have to come back because it's only a near-death experience. And many of them have their lives changed by this. They've died, and they've been born again.

Now that's exactly what John the Baptist was doing to people. We know he was holding them underwater, not sprinkling them with water. He was actually holding him underwater by total immersion. They were transformed by this process, and it's usually considered to be just symbolic. But my view is, Why would you do something that's just symbolic when just for another minute or two underwater you could have the real thing, a near-death experience?

And I think our Lord had that at the baptism, which is when the first moment of the revelation to him of his divine affinity was, according to the account in the New Testament. So I think John the Baptist was an initiator who was leading people through a life-transforming rite of passage.

I'm not sure what I think about Sheldrake's theory, but it was quite a coincidence to run into such similar descriptions of Jesus' baptism in a single day like that.


Ra1119bee said...


I really like this post and I agree with you about the out of body experience.
I would add that I believe we (humans) 'go' out of body every night during our REM sleep.

My grandmother passed over into spirit in 1965 and my sister and I saw her spirit, so
I have always believed in the afterlife.
My grandmother 'visits' me (in dreams) from time to time, as do all of my loved
ones in spirit (Fur loved ones too ;-)).

Water is a powerful conduit to the other plane of existence, as I'm sure you know.
I believe that the other plane of existence is the Firmament.
Rudolph Steiner speaks of The Night as a Wellspring of Strength: Sleep, Spiritual Encounters, and the Starry Firmament.

Steiner stated and described the night as the realm of intuition, a place of deep spiritual encounter, but also as a wellspring of renewal and healing.
I absolutely agree.

In 2003,I had the pleasure to 'meet' Rudolph Steiner in a very intriguing dream.
I DID NOT KNOW about Steiner and his esoteric work, BEFORE the dream.
The next morning after the dream, I googled: mystical man, Germany,dark hair,
intense eyes.
In the dream, the mystical man was wearing a beautiful blue costume.
He spoke German. I do NOT know the German language, but in the dream, I intuitively knew that his speech was German.
I felt as if the mystical man was in town (Dayton Ohio, where I live) traveling with a carnival or circus, hence his blue costume.

Lo and behold (in 2003) my google search resulted in a photo of Rudolph Steiner.
I was shocked especially when I saw Steiner 'eyes.
I thought; Oh My, that's the guy in my dream!!

I did only a small bit of research about Steiner in 2003, because at least to me,
Steiner's work is so very overwhelming.

In another dream just recently (2015) I had a dream about the Fama fraternitatis, which I did NOT know about the Fama Fraternitatis BEFORE the dream.

In the Fama dream I was sitting in a beautiful theater.
Lo and behold, just the other day, I was reading an article where Rudolph Steiner's name was mentioned and I decided to do a bit more research about Steiner.

Again, perhaps coincidently(?), I stumbled upon information about Steiner's Goetheanum and I was shocked when I saw the theater!!
I DID NOT KNOW about Steiner's Goetheanum prior to the recent research.

What's interesting is that in 2018 I had another intriguing dream, I titled: Oscar.
The Oscar dream lead me to do much research about Bern and Switzerland.

I was intrigued when I read that the Goetheanum is in Switzerland.

So yes, I absolutely believe in other planes of existence...and I believe our Soul
has the ability to tap into those planes of existence.

S.K. Orr said...

I've read Roger's works dozens of times and never ONCE picked up on this. Thank you so much for your careful reading and your reverent analysis, William.

I pray God's blessings on you and your family during this Advent season, William. Thank you for your friendship.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

I'm the one who should thank you, S.K., for making me aware of Roger's work. The Lord bless you and keep you, my brother.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...

Debbie, if you haven't already, you might want to peruse some of Bruce Charlton's thoughts on Steiner.

Ra1119bee said...


Yes, I will check out Bruce Charlton's blog and his thoughts on Steiner.
Thank You for sharing this with me.

Much of the information I've read about Steiner's perspective mirrors my own, especially his perspective about the Sacred Sciences, including dream work, the PowerSource of our soul, intuition and creativity, reincarnation and Atlantis.

Of course, I, being a person of color, was somewhat put-off as far as Steiner's perspective
concerning Ethnicity, as I absolutely believe that our soul has traveled in many vessels, to learn many lessons.
The physical body, IMO, is just a vessel.
Not one vessel more 'special' than the other.

I do believe however that our Soul may choose a particular physical body to incarnate, possibly to obtain a particular 'group's Karmic lesson, or perhaps to pay back a Karmic Debt
as I believe I am paying back a 19 Karmic Debt (Feb 19).

In my research concerning Steiner, I was intrigued that we share(ed) a Pisces connection,
(my birthdate Feb 19 and his Feb 25). I also believe we share a Wolf connection, the name Rudolph meaning Famous Wolf.

As you may recall in my previous conversations with you, I shared my connection with the two Wolves. Interesting the Norse Deity Odin/Woden shares a two wolves' connection as well.

I was really shocked by my recent findings about Steiner's Goetheanum, especially concerning the theater, which (from the photos I've found online) is the exact theater in the Fama Dream, especially the red seats.

I would love to visit the Goetheanum to see if there is a stairwell in the lobby of the theater, leading to a lower part of the building (a basement perhaps).

In the dream, I was sitting in a beautiful huge theater with another person, whom I don't recall who that person was.
We were the only ones in the massive theater, except for a man in the very back row, whom
I felt was staring at me. I also felt that he knew me and had been searching for me
for a very long time.

I got up and went to the lobby (the man followed) .
In the lobby a small group of people were waiting for me.
I found myself in the middle of their circle.
I asked what they wanted, and they showed me a sheet of paper with a letterhead.
There was an illustration of two Lions on the letterhead, and a very long word printed that started with the letter F.
I immediately looked at the people and asked: You Guys are from Germany!!?
I than began to levitate to try to escape them however they laid down on the floor in their circle and began chanting.
At some point, they all got up from the floor and ran down the basement.

Of course upon waking from the dream, I googled : long word starting with F, Germany.

Lo and Behold I found the Fama fraternitatis Roseae Crucis , which in my earlier research of Steiner in 2003, I recall reading about Steiner and the Rosicrucians, but I DID NOT

Also as stated, my intrigue concerning Bern and the Bear(s) and Switzerland, all symbolism in my Oscar dream in 2018.
The name Oscar in the Internation Signal Flags meaning Man Overboard.

I think I shared with you my perspective about Humanity and Man Overboard.

Much like a puzzle or perhaps a spider web, I absolutely believe that Everything is connected....

Poppop said...

Hmm. John the Waterboardist just doesn’t have the same ring somehow.

Wm Jas Tychonievich said...


Yes, it's hard to imagine that "all the land ofJudaea" would have flocked to John to be baptized if that ceremony amounted to a form of torture carrying a non-negligible risk of death. (You can't mass-produce near-death experiences without causing a few deaths.) Shamans have always dared death, but the masses?

All in all, I don't find Sheldrake's proposal very plausible -- but it did serve to draw my attention to the clear symbolism of drowning inherent in baptism.

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